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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2012 12:07:48 GMT 1
I had a look at the Lasius Umbratus in my back garden, I didnt see any larger workers, ther'ye all so tiny! I did see lots of possible alate larvae, but I will check the Lasius Niger, and Myrmica Rubra and see I can find any
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2012 18:06:44 GMT 1
Just because it is unlikely doesn't make it not possible, simply to have an open mind about it is the most I can ask without photos.
The fact I've seen for myself that it is possible, though only by my word, means infact that its possible, something I strongly believe and have witnessed, but like I said I will try and obtain a photo for all to see.
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Post by Myrm on May 20, 2012 18:09:35 GMT 1
I don't think anybody is saying it could never happen only that it would be vary unusual. For a start the gene for a soldier caste would surely have to be present somewhere along the line. I have seen quite substantial differences in size of workers in my past flavus colonies and, to a lesser extent, in my current umbratus.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2012 18:10:26 GMT 1
I believe that you've found workers that are large and distinct enough to imply that they are majors, but without some serious adaptations, we're basically arguing semantics.
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Post by Myrm on May 20, 2012 18:19:14 GMT 1
I believe that you've found workers that are large and distinct enough to imply that they are majors, but without some serious adaptations, we're basically arguing semantics. I have to agree with BSF here. I am in no way saying that Soul is wrong or even lying, and to be honest I would love to see Lasius niger have a solider caste, that would be awesome; just imagine how naughty they would be! >.< Soldiers are a distinct and specially adapted caste designed for a particular role in the colony. I would favour the major-worker side of the argument rather than a true soldier caste. However, I am no gene/biology expert so will not state categorically that one or the other side of the argument is correct.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2012 19:45:51 GMT 1
Well, Now I must stress that Super-Soldiers were formed but they did have soldiers present in their colonies. With my Myrmica rubra's I have some tiny workers and some very large workers which run out and seem to rip up their prey much easier.
I still have an open mind but I really want a photo before anyone on this forum can diagnose it a Soldier or a Large worker.
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2012 1:15:39 GMT 1
I do enjoy little forum discussions like this ;D Anyway, I think perhaps Myrm may be right in his seemingly infinite wisdom about it being perhaps more a major-worker resembling some characteristics of a soldier. Though having said that I disagree that the gene must have been present somewhere along the line, DNA mutation isn't uncommon by any standard, all it takes is for one base amino acid sequence to be slightly diffienct to have a major impact on the outcome of say a specific egg. But uncommon I must say.
All of the biological stuff aside, a picture is what I need or should I say what this forum needs to truly say what particular caste I saw.
Now something which may excite you (or not)... Having said I had no pictures isn't entirely true, as I recall (only this second infact) my dad took some pictures of some colonys in the same area, it may be he got a shot of the caste in question, I shall look through some photos tomorrow and see if i can find them and hopefully find the one we all want to see!!
I'll keep you posted!!! ;D
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 2:26:48 GMT 1
Right guys, here is a picture of I believe one of my 'caste' ;D Now I've put a ring round it so you can all pick it out from the rest, this photo isn't from the nest containing many which I referenced in my first post but is one my dad took of another nest he found. As you can see this ant is particularly more developed and larger than her surrounding sisters, there is no other ant of her size present in the picture apart from the queen (which I think is there somewhere). This was taken as you can see in 2007, a long time ago, I do think that this is an early development of a soldier caste, be it perhaps in major worker form in 2007 when it was taken. Some i'm sure will argue its just a large worker, but the darker head, and more developed muscles in the head and its half again larger size than its sisters suggests to me it is an early form of soldier caste. I've only ever seen ants of Lasius flavus like this in nests in this area. I hope this picture will persuade you all there is certainly something going on in the gene pool in this nest!!! Attachments:
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 4:16:35 GMT 1
I would still call this a "large" Lasius worker. A "large" Lasius flavus worker specimen is described to be 4.8mm in length and brown in coloration. I have a colony of Lasius umbratus, a species which is in a different subgenus, but has a similar lifestyle; this colony also has "majors" which are almost twice as large as their sisters, with brown heads. I don't believe I have any photographs of them on hand, but I did capture one briefly in one of my early videos. I don't know how to set the plugin to a certain time, but the worker shows up near the 3:15 mark (that's a normal worker in the foreground.) If you still aren't satisfied you should probably ask an expert about these ants. I hate to point you elsewhere than this great UK forum, but the professional myrmecologists I know of tend to spend their time at anti-trade forums like the one on Yuku (when there's no ant trade, people go looking for their ants and turn up lots of useful, free collection data.) antfarm.yuku.com/forums/3/Anting-Field-Observations-Sightings#.T7sEF2aa4Yw
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Post by Myrm on May 22, 2012 5:53:18 GMT 1
I would still call this a "large" Lasius worker. Sorry, Soul but I have to agree with BSF. I believe it to be just a large worker. The head size in relation to its body size is no different from the rest of its nest-mates. There is nothing that suggests to me that it is a soldier ant or some halfway mutation. It's just a large specimen. Perhaps, for whatever reason it recieved more food than the rest of the brood when it was a larvae. But, as I said above, there's nothing "soldier" about it. There are many species whose workers differ greatly in size without being a soldier ant. Still, it's a vary interesting picture, thank you for showing us.
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 11:50:07 GMT 1
Hmmmm, perhaps I was over zealous in my assumptions... I shall say however this wasn't the nest I was referring to from my post, the "workers" there were much larger than the one shown. I'm still not totally convinced as you suggested, I do think there is some form of development going on there, however slight. But each to their own I would just like to say thank you to anyone who read my post, commented or found it intresting, its nice to have a forum where people will discuss things like this and give their oppinion, so thank you
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 18:41:28 GMT 1
I have seen some myrmica rubras foraging near rocks some where double the size others i doubt they were soldiers.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2012 19:10:24 GMT 1
ive noticed this sort of ant behaviour before about 6 months ago in the middle of a local wood. i roled a log over to discover a large colony of Lasius flavus with what looked simmilar to the description and around were a large number of other nests. i didnt even think about taking a picture though because i didnt realise how unique this was
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 12:10:40 GMT 1
Wilson's study of Atta and acromyrmex revealed that soldiers appear at a more common ratio compared to workers as the colony develops and matures. A younger colony will less likely make larger ants because with leafcutters there's a delicate balance between intake (food) and outtake (ant births) that the colony relies on managing to survive. This trait may exist in less advanced forms in other ant colonies perhaps? You said the colony was very mature and that's maybe why more large potential soldiers may have been more common.
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